S2 E14 | JTBD in Business School

[00:00:00] You know, I have a bias towards the people who go to school like on the weekend and get their MBA because I feel like they have an application of whatever you're talking about. They can go back and see it in action where the full-time students have almost disconnected

[00:00:13] from context. And so, they're almost playing it back through the imagination of what they used to experience or what they could experience. And so, it's more like I feel like it's not as grounded to reality.

[00:00:29] Welcome to the Circuit Breaker Podcast where we challenge the status quo of innovation and new product development. We'll talk about tools and skills and methodologies used to build better products and make you a better consumer.

[00:00:42] I'm Bob Mesta and I'm the co-founder of the Rewire Group and I'm one of your co-hosts and we're joined by Greg Engle, who is my co-founder and Chief Bob interpreter. Join us now as we trip the circuit and give you time to reset, reorganize and

[00:00:56] recharge your brain to build better products. Hey, Bob. Hey, Greg. What's up? So, today we're going to talk... We're taking a question from the audience, if you will. Someone had reached out through LinkedIn and asked a question and it's an interesting question.

[00:01:16] It's actually a very hard question for us to answer, not because we don't have an opinion but more because there's a lot of different answers to that question and you can take it from a lot of different perspectives. I don't even know the question yet.

[00:01:30] So, you're building it all up and I'm getting excited and nervous at the same time. Well, you should be. So... Because yeah, I won't say that because some people know what it means for us to argue and I will not set that expectation.

[00:01:44] So the question is if Jocely Dunn was more widely understood and accepted quite frankly, that wasn't part of the question but as accepted as well, how would it change business school curriculum? So this is somebody that's going, it's going to be starting business school.

[00:01:59] They have been very high up in the higher level of management from startups and stuff like that. And the question and one of the things that he had said was, look I understand how it fits in marketing per se because we can change the narrative from just

[00:02:15] feature and benefit marketing to actual demand marketing with context and with all sorts of things. And how would it change things like finance or some of those other courses that they have to take, those core courses they take in business school?

[00:02:31] And as I started thinking about it, I'm like, okay, my first response was, well, it shouldn't change curriculum at all because business schools don't have a job to be done or things like that. But then I started thinking about it a little bit deeper and I'm like,

[00:02:43] okay, so if we're more widely understood people that going into business school would have taken jobs to be done or there would be a job-sealing course for them to understand that different contexts require different situations. And we've talked about in the past, we've talked about disruption, how

[00:03:01] do people make the decisions they make? Well, if I'm in certain contexts, I make decisions based on those contexts. So the ideal would be that there would be a course or people would come in with the understanding that different situations yields

[00:03:16] different approaches, different things like if you're talking about finance, I could look at the world, you know, probably more accounting. I could look at, I'm going to use different accounting rules or methods based on the context I'm in.

[00:03:29] Some do cash accrual, some do whatever, all those types of things. And it's why do I do them and understanding those things? So as I thought about the question, I was more in the camp of, well, if it was more widely accepted people go in with that knowledge

[00:03:43] that those things happen and they wouldn't just teach the theory. They would teach what context does that theory work? And where does it work? That's right. Right. So it wouldn't be I'm changing curriculum totally, but I'm changing in a way of having my discussions last about the

[00:04:01] what of the theory is and the why the theory works in different situations or not. I would say that most of academia works on this, you know, what it is, how does it work, how much do you use it, like this, the skill of some of those

[00:04:14] tools, right? But they don't do a really good job at understanding who, when, where and why. And so I think the thing that would change is that there would be and I wrestle and it's again, I'm just hearing it, but I wrestle

[00:04:29] whether it's a foundational course you put in the first year to really get people to understand what and define progress and to realize empathetic perspective from different perspectives around the issue or whatever you're doing or you put it at the end as a course that really helps people

[00:04:46] then say, all right, now these are all building blocks. How do you put them together? And that jobs is really like an integration tool. It helps pull all of it together and helps you understand where it works

[00:04:56] and where it doesn't work in, like you said, the context of the outcome. And I think there's a big separation between learning the skill of doing a balance sheet and making it work and then being in the

[00:05:07] context of a startup or M&A and trying to actually figure out how we should look at this in order to use the balance sheet. And so you start to realize that it's these contexts that are really,

[00:05:19] really important and that I feel like if it was really widely accepted, they'd have kind of a set of here's where this is best used. Here's some of the anomalies and here's where this shouldn't be used and that would be part of almost all the different curriculums.

[00:05:34] Or like you said and I actually said, you do it beginning, do you do it the end or do you not do it at all? And your case studies in your class discussion, you talk about, well, when would this work or not work?

[00:05:45] What situations if I gave you this scenario that you're a corporate company and you need to grow your stock price and you need to do these things and you don't want to do a stock buyback and all these types of things with this work or not.

[00:05:57] Right. And I think that gets back to kind of the teaching style as well. I think the case method is one of the best methods of teaching because it forces everybody to have a discussion and talk about the concepts they're dealing with.

[00:06:09] But to me, jobs is that at least for you and me, I feel it's like our, it's our compass. It's our orientation to like you can tell me about something but like where is it? When is it? Who's there? Why are they doing it?

[00:06:23] OK, now I know I understand. But if I don't have that orientation, it's kind of like, you know, do you like pizza? I'm like, oh my God, OK, like, I can't answer that question. I mean, of course, I like pizza, but like there's different situations

[00:06:34] where I didn't pizza. And so you start to realize that it's the other part of the story that most of the time we're missing. I think the other thing that we talk about a lot internally and then we don't talk about a lot externally is the big thing

[00:06:48] I think it could change in business school, but any college is if people know why they're going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The job you've done they're trying to do because that actually frames the way you listen to the lectures. That's correct. It actually frames the way you.

[00:07:00] The progress you're trying to make. I think that's exactly. I think if I was to change anything, it would be making sure that students understand why they're there and what progress they're trying to make, because then it will actually help set

[00:07:12] the curriculum in the right way of how much and how and what to actually study. Because I think even with the person asked the question, right? As as he sits in the in the classroom and listens to the lecture,

[00:07:26] his why he's there could change the way he listens to the lecture or takes the information because if he's going in Catherine's, one of the people that was working, Catherine that works with us was working through her master her masters of business school while working.

[00:07:43] So if there was a subject that could could fit with what she wanted to do in her job, probably manage us, but she would be more willing to listen to that if it was something really boring and she didn't really care about

[00:07:57] maybe less so and just want to pass the class. So how do you put her in a context that actually all of the stuff is interesting and all the stuff is by knowing that job to be done, why she's going would help you do that.

[00:08:09] Now, that's putting a lot on the professors. So I don't know if they have time to do that. But if they want to do that, but that's a different story. But if we gave that power to the student

[00:08:20] to say, OK, if you're in this job to be done, if you're running away from your current job, yeah, help me escape and you want to go to business school because you think it's a reset in your life.

[00:08:31] You're more apt to hear things like this and less apt to hear things like that. And we kind of know what those are versus I need to get my MBA so I can be a partner and like to be honest, it doesn't matter where I get it from.

[00:08:41] I just got to get it and I got to put it in and get it done. You know, I'm going to have some fun and just kind of do what other expect me and get it so I can get become a partner.

[00:08:48] So I think as I again, as I heard the question, it's like I had this I had this knee jerk reaction. Oh, whatever. But then as you start unpeeling that onion, I think there's many different ways it could help change.

[00:09:01] But I think the biggest way it helps change is if you are self aware of why you're doing it, not only does it help you get more out of what you want. Like if if you're going there because you're your startup

[00:09:13] is struggling with financing or getting money or that type of stuff. Traction or you're more apt to hear those things. But by knowing your job, you also know your last app to hear certain things. And maybe you can actually challenge yourself to actually learn more

[00:09:29] in those things that you aren't interested in, which helps you because that problem is going to go away and a new problem is going to come up. And if you can get yourself to understand those different things

[00:09:41] and apply yourself in the different way of hearing all of it, but then knowing when to pull out what tool. And that's I think what we both were talking about is can we can we talk about a theory and talk about, well, it works here

[00:09:56] because of these contexts and things like that. But if you were trying to use it over here, it might not work as well. But no, that you probably going to be in both situations in your work life.

[00:10:06] And if you keep trying to do a eventually is not going to work and you're going to have to go to B. So I think that's the I think it's the openness, the willingness to to understand that you're going to have and flow in life.

[00:10:18] I think that's the key thing that jobs teaches us. Yep. I think I think the thing to me is that business school, at least the simplistic way don't pass. Bash business schools. No, no, the simplistic way to look at it is it's it's it's giving me a toolbox

[00:10:33] and a lot of things, right? How to set up my sales group, how to how to actually look at strategy, how to do my balance sheet and P&L, how to do my cap table. Like there's stuff it's going to teach me how to do.

[00:10:48] But the hard part is that it when you're armed with all these tools, but you aren't armed with a lot of context, it's kind of like you're walking through Home Depot and going like, I need this and I need that and I got this and I got that.

[00:11:01] I was like, OK, I can go build a home like no, you can't go build a home. So you went to Home Depot this weekend? Like you're telling me you bought a bunch of stuff?

[00:11:07] No, but no, but but I think the point is is that part of this is that there's there's there's the aspect of understanding the skills and the and the thinking required to apply the tools. And I think more and more it's over the years,

[00:11:22] it feels like it's gone more towards being discrete sets of tools as opposed to ways to think. And so I don't think jobs should be the center of any kind of curriculum, but more it should be a supplement to the curriculum

[00:11:36] to help people understand what progress they're trying to make and to empathize and understand the progress other people are trying to make as you try to integrate all these things. And so most people feel like if I just know the tool sets,

[00:11:48] I can actually, you know, I can do just about anything. But the reality is it's like, when to your point? When do I pull it out? Who do I use it with? What like what? You know, where is it not going to work?

[00:11:58] Where is it? Where is a where's a simpler set of tools? Like there's it's it's becoming the craftsman or the crafts person of kind of figuring out the use of the tools that I think is the most important part.

[00:12:09] And that's why, you know, I have a bias towards the people who go to go to school like on the weekend and get their MBA because I feel like they have an application of whatever you're talking about.

[00:12:21] They can go back and see it in action where the full time students have almost disconnected from context. And so they're they're almost playing it back through the imagination of what they used to experience or what they could experience.

[00:12:33] And so it's more like I feel like it's not as grounded to reality. So is it the school responsibility to put them in context or is it their personal responsibility to put them in context? I think it's the students responsibility to put themselves in context.

[00:12:46] And part of it is what I would say is the luxury of going full time, right, has its benefits, but at the same time, the fact that it's not like anything else. There's some there's some dangers with it as well.

[00:12:59] And so there's a lot of people who've learned a lot of things but can't can't really apply any of it. Right. I've met quite a few MBAs that way. And and and vice versa, there's a lot of people who can apply

[00:13:08] who never studied it at all and figured it out. Right. And I think it's it's one of those things where if you understand why you're there, if you understand why you're at business school, you understand what you're going to learn and you have a problem to solve,

[00:13:23] it's actually very easy to learn. If you're there just to get a bunch of information and you have to go figure it out, it's very difficult, right? So it's actually your responsibility to as a student. To understand what different contexts and things like that.

[00:13:39] Now, what I would say is it is a little bit on the on the schools as well. And I think things are changing with schools as more working people go back to school where they used to think they would just impart knowledge.

[00:13:51] And if I gave you all this knowledge, you would you'll go figure it out where I think now they're they're a little trying a little bit better of why do you need the knowledge? Different ways to seek the knowledge stuff like that.

[00:14:04] So it's changing a little bit, but I don't think it's changing completely. And and we can't count as students as as humans. We can't count on the institution changing. Yes, we have to know how to go take information from the institution

[00:14:17] and figure out how we can consume it. And so this is why it's a plug for the book, but wrote a book called Choosing College. It talks about the jobs of why people choose to go back to school. And you know, it was pretty extensive.

[00:14:30] Michael Horner and I wrote it in 2016. So it's however old that is, it would be almost seven years old. I think the reality is, is that has helped people like Paula Blanket SNHU. It's helped, you know, other small, small schools actually use it.

[00:14:46] And to be honest, it's helped a lot of parents with with their children in terms of helping them figure out kind of where to go. And so it's helped a lot of students as well. But I think the reality is like there is a responsibility for the student

[00:14:57] to choose the progress they want and to actually find the program that fits as opposed to I'm going where all my friends go, or I'm just going to go to the best school and that I can get into. And that will be that'll work out.

[00:15:09] And typically it doesn't. So hopefully we're answering the question that the listener had. And I'm trying, I'm not using the name because of different reasons. But as he hears this, I'm hoping that what he's taking away is that that.

[00:15:26] Well, it's on him, but it's also he can push the instructors, the professors, his fellow students to help if he understands the context he's in and things like that. But also that we can't count on everybody to give us spoon fetus information.

[00:15:44] We have to figure out what those are. And I think the key is, and I think this is the way rewired just about everybody in a rewired approach as a problem is we know that there's different solutions for different contexts.

[00:15:58] So as you're sitting in the classroom and you're learning, a think about the different contexts that it would work or not work. Or or if you're learning something, if you're learning something like disruption that that actually feels when we talk about disruption, it's like

[00:16:13] you almost you almost think of well, that company was stupid. Well, no, they were in a context that forced them into a certain way and probably made really good business decisions for the time, but maybe not for the long term. I mean, you look at digital equipment.

[00:16:27] I mean, they had the smartest. They were one of the biggest companies and the smartest people there. They just followed the system and the system told them they couldn't actually go build the things that they. So as you learn new theories, be OK with questioning

[00:16:41] of why does it work? Why doesn't it work? Ask questions to the professors. Ask questions to your fellow students and figure that out because what's going to end up happening throughout your career is you're going to be in different situations. You're going to be at a startup,

[00:16:55] which trade offs in a startup is very different than trade offs in a corporate environment. So those are the types of things that I want people to be aware of is why are they there? What are the what are they trying to learn?

[00:17:07] And if there's things that they're taking a class that they're like, well, I don't really care about that. Challenge yourself and why would it be important later? What types of things am I going to learn from this that will help me in the future in different contexts?

[00:17:19] So if I'm going to start up now, if I go to a corporate company, how might this help me? If you say, oh, I'm going to start up and we grew 10,000 X thousand X or whatever the question would be. How will this help me?

[00:17:31] Because I'm talking about HR. HR in a small company is very different than HR in a large company. And I make very different decisions of how I put somebody on an action plan, how I talk to people, what's acceptable, not acceptable.

[00:17:47] All that kind of stuff changes as we mature as a company in different things. So think about those types of things as you're learning. That's right. And I think it gets back to like when I'm running a startup

[00:17:59] and then it's not a startup anymore, and then it's now a big corporation. There's different phases that you go through and you have to actually modify the systems to fit the context you're in. And so it's knowing when you have to pivot

[00:18:11] or when you have to adjust the system, why you have to adjust the system and what's the outcome you're actually seeking from the system. And so you start to realize like this is where there's like this is why I hate the phrase best practices

[00:18:22] because it's like, oh, I'm going to put in a best practice. But best practices only makes everybody say, OK, this is the best practice. OK, leave it alone. And the reality is like it's just it's actually a really bad strategy. So I'll leave it alone.

[00:18:34] I'll let that one die slowly on the vine. So as we give homework, as we always do, this is a little tougher. But I think the homework is if you're going back to school or reading a book or whatever progress you seek trying to seek.

[00:18:47] You need to understand what are you what's your contacts? What are your outcomes? What are you worried about? You know, what are your habits and understand why are you doing that? Because when you read a book, for example, and it's it's not as much

[00:19:01] of an investment as going to business school. But my context of why I want to read that book dictates the information I'm going to get out of it. If I'm reading something for even if I'm reading a business book

[00:19:11] and I'm reading it for enjoyment, I'm going to take different things out of it than if I'm reading it because I'm going through a particular problem in my business. There's books I listen to every year and I get something different

[00:19:22] out every single time because my context has changed. The book has literally not changed at all. So I think the homework is just go through your force of progress. Kind of why are you going to pick a school? Why are you reading this book?

[00:19:34] Those types of things so you understand the information you're getting out of and maybe even challenge yourself to say, OK, this is why I'm doing it. This information I want out of it. But what are their informations there?

[00:19:44] And is this the best way for me to do it? Because there might be three other ways to do it that's either different, it's better. So I think that's kind of where we end today. And it's always thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

[00:19:54] Thank you. See you. Thanks for listening to the Circuit Breaker podcast. If you haven't already, please subscribe so you won't miss an episode. If you know somebody who's stuck on the innovation treadmill, please share it. If you'd like to learn more information, visit us at TheRewiredGroup.com

[00:20:09] to find out how we work, how we can help some resources, some books, some software. Join us next time as we trip the Circuit Breaker to help you recharge, re-energize and refocus your new product development.